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Carvaka Ancient Indian Atheism And Secular Humanism    

I've been doing a little research (not extensive yet, by any means) into exactly how old atheism and how it came into being.

 

In my explorations, I came across descriptions of the Carvaka philosophy.

 

Carvaka is a philosophy that's very ancient, Indian in origin, atheist, (lacks a belief in Gods), and secular humanist in nature.

 

A general description:
Quote.
The system of philosophy named after its founder, Carvaka, was set out in the  Brhaspati Sutra  in India probably about 600 BCE. This text has not survived and, like similar philosophies in Greece, much of what we know of it comes from polemics against it and remarks by its critics. There is a further similarity with Greece in that this is a rationalistic and skeptical philosophy, thus undermining the widespread belief in the West that Indian philosophy is primarily religious and mystical. Amartya Sen has argued, in fact, that there is a larger volume of atheistic and agnostic writings in Pali and Sanskrit than in any other classical tradition�Greek, Latin, Hebrew, or Arabic. He adds that this applies also to Buddhism, the only agnostic world religion ever to emerge.

 

Carvaka's philosophy developed at a time when religious dogma concerning our knowledge of reality, the constitution of the world, and the concept of an afterlife were being increasingly questioned, both in India and elsewhere. Specifically, the school of Carvaka contained within itself a materialism that ruled out the supernatural (lokayata), naturalism (all phenomena described in terms of the properties of the four elements), rejection of the Vedas (nastika), and a skepticism that included rejection of inferential logic, or induction.
End Quote.

 

Source: Humanistic Texts 

 

In addition, Carvaka was opposed to the Caste system and Brahminism.

 

The following sums it up:

Quote.

    Fire is hot, water cold,
    refreshingly cool is the breeze of morning;
    By whom came this variety
    They were born of their own nature.

 

    This also has been said by Brhaspati:
    There is no heaven, no final liberation,
    nor any soul in another world,
    Nor do the actions of the four castes,
    orders, or priesthoods produce any real effect.

 

    If a beast slain as an offering to the dead
    will itself go to heaven,
    why does the sacrificer not straightway offer his father

 

    If offerings to the dead produce gratification
    to those who have reached the land of the dead,
    why the need to set out provisions
    for travelers starting on this journey
    If our offering sacrifices here gratify beings in heaven,
    why not make food offerings down below
    to gratify those standing on housetops

 

    While life remains, let a man live happily,
    let him feed on butter though he runs in debt;
    When once the body becomes ashes,
    how can it ever return again

 

    If he who departs from the body goes to another world,
    why does he not come back again,
    restless for love of his kinfolk
    It is only as a means of livelihood
    that brahmins have established here
    abundant ceremonies for the dead -
    there is no other fruit anywhere.

 

    Hence for kindness to the mass of living beings
    we must fly for refuge in the doctrine of Carvaka.

End Quote.

 

Source: Daylight Atheism

 

If you take each verse and extract it's fairly clear cut meaning. The resemblance to current secular humanist approaches is remarkable.

 

Amartya Sen, an Indian atheist and Nobel Prize winner, writes about Indian Atheism in his book, The Argumentative Indian.

He also indicates that Indian Atheism goes back to approximately 1500 BC. (I'll be buying his book to get further details).

 

Interview with Amartya Sen. 

 

Some theists, for reasons known only to themselves, are currently pushing three fallacious claims:

 

    1. atheism came into being as a reaction to Christianity.

    2. atheism means godless.

    3. atheism is a religion.        

 

Of course, all of these claims are false, and I can only assume that they provide the foundation for some anti-atheist argument which they wish to present.

 

The existence of Indian atheism proves that atheism didn't come into existence as a reaction to Christianity because it predates Christianity.

 

The last two are easily disputed by looking up both the term atheism and the term religion in any dictionary and realizing that a lack of belief in god(s) doesn\47t constitute a religion (a set of beliefs).

 

Atheism, lack of belief in god(s) has existed for thousands of years because for thousands of years there have been people who believe in reason, science, humanistic principles and not superstition.

 

Trance Gemini (KH) 2008.01.01.

Version: 
Latest 3 messages about this page (41 total) - view full discussion
Jan 4 2008 by Checkers
chx
yes, you/we can consider this debate a success.
Jan 4 2008 by Trance Gemini
Thanks Chx, but did it help you to understand the definitions and why
as atheists we define our terms in the way we do? If so, then I'll
consider it a success.
Jan 4 2008 by Checkers
chx

TG, sometimes people have a debate and then talk past each other for
whatever reason and then the mud slinging starts.

i am pleased that we understand each other, i think we just need to
listen (read) to what the other is actually saying, yes?

a fruitfull debate :)
38 more messages »
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